1 00:00:07,319 --> 00:00:08,189 Unknown: For 1000s of 2 00:00:08,190 --> 00:00:11,130 John Greenewald: years, humanity has looked to the stars and 3 00:00:11,130 --> 00:00:19,380 wondered, are we alone? One of the earliest recorded examples 4 00:00:19,380 --> 00:00:23,730 and written literature exploring alien life was penned way back 5 00:00:23,730 --> 00:00:30,000 in 200 ad. Lucian of Sam Osada, a writer of satire and eastern 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,330 Turkey, wrote a fictionalized story about a journey to the 7 00:00:33,330 --> 00:00:37,320 moon, and the Discovery of Life flourishing on the lunar body. 8 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:43,500 My guest today, walks this earth more than 1800 years after that 9 00:00:43,500 --> 00:00:47,550 story was written, aims to make what we call science fiction, 10 00:00:47,910 --> 00:00:50,100 and turn it into science back. 11 00:00:50,939 --> 00:00:55,169 Avi Loeb: But there are more planets like this in the visible 12 00:00:55,169 --> 00:00:59,699 universe than there are grains of sand. In all the beaches on 13 00:00:59,699 --> 00:01:00,149 earth 14 00:01:00,180 --> 00:01:03,240 John Greenewald: Professor Avi Loeb, who serves as the Frank B 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,480 Baird, Junior professor of science at Harvard University, 16 00:01:07,110 --> 00:01:12,840 has authored nearly 700 research articles and five books. he 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,260 explores some of life's most amazing questions that many 18 00:01:16,260 --> 00:01:20,010 scientists fear to touch, and he is here to speak about his new 19 00:01:20,010 --> 00:01:24,540 endeavor called the GALILEO project. According to the press 20 00:01:24,540 --> 00:01:28,620 release sent out just today, the goal of the GALILEO project is 21 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:31,470 to bring the search for extraterrestrial technological 22 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:35,160 signatures from accidental or anecdotal observation and 23 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,120 legends, to the mainstream of transparent validated and 24 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,940 systematic scientific research. From bio signatures to techno 25 00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:49,110 signatures, and everything in between, stay tuned, you're 26 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:51,810 about to journey inside the black vault. 27 00:02:18,150 --> 00:02:20,700 That's right, everybody. As always, thank you so much for 28 00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:24,630 tuning in and making this your podcast or your live stream of 29 00:02:24,630 --> 00:02:27,300 choice. I'm your host, john Greenwald, Jr, founder and 30 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:29,850 creator of the black vault calm and I don't want to waste any 31 00:02:29,850 --> 00:02:33,660 time. My special guest today is someone who's not only busy in 32 00:02:33,660 --> 00:02:37,860 general, but definitely today. So Professor Avi Loeb, I am 33 00:02:37,860 --> 00:02:41,010 honored to have you on the show, and especially on a day like 34 00:02:41,010 --> 00:02:44,190 today carving out some time for me and my audience. So thank you 35 00:02:44,190 --> 00:02:48,630 for that. My great pleasure. And and I want to get into the 36 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:51,720 GALILEO project in just a few moments, but since it's the this 37 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,960 is your first time on my show, I always like to give guests an 38 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,720 opportunity. Just to give me a little bit of background about 39 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,990 what your role is at Harvard University, your background in 40 00:03:00,990 --> 00:03:02,670 science, and what is your niche? 41 00:03:03,180 --> 00:03:06,180 Avi Loeb: Right. So fundamentally, I'm a farm boy, I 42 00:03:06,180 --> 00:03:09,540 was born on a farm collected eggs every afternoon and haven't 43 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:12,810 changed much I should say, I'm very much connected to nature. I 44 00:03:13,290 --> 00:03:17,820 was interested in philosophy early on, and I'm currently an 45 00:03:17,820 --> 00:03:21,780 astrophysicist. But curious about the most fundamental 46 00:03:21,780 --> 00:03:25,410 questions we have. And one of them is, are we the smartest kid 47 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:30,030 on the block? And, as we will discuss, the GALILEO project 48 00:03:30,030 --> 00:03:33,990 aims to answer this question, not philosophically, but 49 00:03:33,990 --> 00:03:37,140 actually based on evidence because science is guided by 50 00:03:37,140 --> 00:03:40,650 evidence. Over the past nine years have been the longest 51 00:03:40,650 --> 00:03:42,780 serving Chair of the Astronomy Department at Harvard 52 00:03:42,780 --> 00:03:48,720 University. three terms each was three years, also the founding 53 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,720 director of the black hole initiative at Harvard that a 54 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,590 center that brings together philosophers and the scientists 55 00:03:55,650 --> 00:03:59,760 to study black holes. And I'm currently still the director of 56 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,690 the Institute for theory and computation at Harvard, at the 57 00:04:03,690 --> 00:04:07,140 Harvard Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, so, and I've been 58 00:04:07,140 --> 00:04:11,400 the chair of a number of boards, but we will not get into that. 59 00:04:12,449 --> 00:04:14,789 John Greenewald: I know that and you have an extensive resume, 60 00:04:14,789 --> 00:04:18,329 none of which would even fit in an hour. So I appreciate the 61 00:04:18,329 --> 00:04:21,989 overview though. I know that many scientists have a certain 62 00:04:22,019 --> 00:04:26,879 angle is yours, more astronomy, more astrobiology or kind of all 63 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:27,569 of the above? 64 00:04:27,990 --> 00:04:30,840 Avi Loeb: No, my my angle is that of a scientist. And 65 00:04:31,020 --> 00:04:35,370 fundamentally, science is about evidence run prejudice. And 66 00:04:35,610 --> 00:04:40,320 that's the main point of argument that I have with the 67 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:43,800 mainstream of the scientific community because I think we 68 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,560 should be guided by evidence and when there is something unusual. 69 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:50,670 For example, in object that entered the solar system from 70 00:04:50,670 --> 00:04:54,240 outside and doesn't look like any of the rocks that we have 71 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,570 seen before in the solar system doesn't look like a comet or an 72 00:04:57,570 --> 00:05:01,350 asteroid, we should consider the possibilities. But it is a 73 00:05:01,350 --> 00:05:05,070 plastic bottle among all these rocks like we find on the beach 74 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:10,680 when we walk across the beach. And so my point is we should 75 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,010 allow ourselves to learn something new, rather than 76 00:05:14,010 --> 00:05:18,450 always assuming that what we see in the sky is something we have 77 00:05:18,450 --> 00:05:22,920 expected from before. And that's the way science is done, we 78 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,890 learn new things by paying attention to evidence. And, you 79 00:05:25,890 --> 00:05:28,920 know, fundamentally, it's a lesson that I've learned from 80 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,680 practicing astronomy over decades that we should be 81 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,250 modest, that sometimes nature is more imaginative than we are. 82 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:39,390 And if you ask me about this particular question, whether we 83 00:05:39,390 --> 00:05:43,140 are alone, or whether there is a smarter kid on the block, we 84 00:05:43,140 --> 00:05:47,490 know now that then roughly half plus or minus A quarter of all 85 00:05:47,490 --> 00:05:51,900 the sun like stars have a planet the size of the Earth, roughly 86 00:05:51,900 --> 00:05:55,440 the same separation. And if you repeat the same circumstances, 87 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,890 you might as well get similar outcomes. That to me sounds like 88 00:05:58,890 --> 00:06:02,970 common sense. I don't think it's a speculation to say, things 89 00:06:02,970 --> 00:06:07,530 like us may have already existed out there. And in fact, most 90 00:06:07,530 --> 00:06:11,040 stars formed billions of years before the sun. So if there was 91 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,670 a technological civilization, that predated us, let's say, by 92 00:06:14,670 --> 00:06:19,830 a billion years, it could have sent AI systems that they 93 00:06:19,830 --> 00:06:24,690 replicate themselves through 3d printers, and fill up the entire 94 00:06:24,690 --> 00:06:27,660 Milky Way galaxy by now, because it takes much less than a 95 00:06:27,660 --> 00:06:32,550 billion years to traverse the distances across the galaxy. And 96 00:06:32,550 --> 00:06:35,190 then my point is, let's be more this, let's be humble, let's, 97 00:06:35,220 --> 00:06:38,250 let's not assume that we know the answer in advance, and 98 00:06:38,250 --> 00:06:43,650 simply check the sky and figure out what is around us. And, you 99 00:06:43,650 --> 00:06:47,940 know, that's just like, opening the curtains on our windows and 100 00:06:47,940 --> 00:06:51,450 checking whether we have neighbors, if you are, you know, 101 00:06:51,450 --> 00:06:55,260 we don't have neighbors, and we are the smartest in the 102 00:06:55,260 --> 00:07:00,150 universe, it doesn't get rid of the neighbors, you know, they 103 00:07:00,180 --> 00:07:01,380 might still be out there. 104 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,430 John Greenewald: Before we drill down down on exactly what your 105 00:07:05,430 --> 00:07:09,270 angle is, with the GALILEO project, you touched upon these 106 00:07:09,300 --> 00:07:12,630 objects, and I believe you were referring to a mu mu, which I 107 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:16,410 also want to get into. But first, I want to tackle science 108 00:07:16,410 --> 00:07:22,620 and scientists in general, is there a hesitancy to deal with 109 00:07:22,620 --> 00:07:26,640 that topic when you're talking about not microbial life found 110 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,120 on a distant planet, but rather in intelligent life that's 111 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,330 traversing the cosmos in whichever way that they have 112 00:07:33,330 --> 00:07:37,650 figured out to do? So? Is there a hesitant hesitancy to that, in 113 00:07:37,650 --> 00:07:39,090 the broader nature of all this, 114 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,540 Avi Loeb: definitely, I mean, it's being regarded This is an 115 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:46,500 extraordinary claim to argue that something like us may exist 116 00:07:46,530 --> 00:07:50,220 out there. And frankly, I think it reflects arrogance, because I 117 00:07:50,220 --> 00:07:53,730 don't regard us as very intelligent whatsoever. If you 118 00:07:53,730 --> 00:07:57,570 look at human history, you know, we wasted most of our resources 119 00:07:57,630 --> 00:08:00,960 in fighting each other, trying to feel superior relative to 120 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,530 each other. The second world war was driven by racism, you know, 121 00:08:04,530 --> 00:08:09,990 Nazi Germany, and the $4 trillion, were spent just by the 122 00:08:09,990 --> 00:08:14,940 US economy on that war. And the 75 million people were killed in 123 00:08:14,940 --> 00:08:18,840 that war, two thirds of the Jewish population in Europe was 124 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,730 killed 6 million. And so all this devastation was for nothing 125 00:08:23,730 --> 00:08:27,780 just for the image, the image that some people are superior 126 00:08:27,780 --> 00:08:31,080 relative to others. And that doesn't show intelligence, 127 00:08:31,170 --> 00:08:35,490 because intelligence, in my mind is cooperation and sharing of 128 00:08:35,490 --> 00:08:39,180 evidence based knowledge. And that's what science advocates 129 00:08:39,210 --> 00:08:43,200 and to assume that we are really unique and special, I think, is 130 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:49,890 arrogance. So my point is, I don't think it is speculative at 131 00:08:49,890 --> 00:08:53,970 all, to search for things like us, or maybe even more advanced 132 00:08:53,970 --> 00:08:57,210 than us. Because I don't think that we are very advanced at 133 00:08:57,210 --> 00:09:02,760 this point. And so what's the problem about just collecting 134 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:07,260 evidence searching for that? My my argument is extraordinary. 135 00:09:07,500 --> 00:09:11,790 conservatism leads to extraordinary ignorance, as we 136 00:09:11,790 --> 00:09:14,820 know, from the days of Galileo, Galileo, when the telescope when 137 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:18,240 the philosopher's refused to look through his telescope and 138 00:09:18,270 --> 00:09:20,670 argue that the sun moves around the Earth. 139 00:09:22,590 --> 00:09:25,350 John Greenewald: you named your project, the GALILEO project. 140 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:30,840 Give us an overview of of what it is and what is it that you're 141 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:31,770 trying to find? 142 00:09:32,190 --> 00:09:36,390 Avi Loeb: Right. So the name Galileo was obviously chosen for 143 00:09:36,390 --> 00:09:39,900 the reason I just mentioned that the word these philosophers that 144 00:09:39,900 --> 00:09:42,300 refused to look through the telescope because they knew the 145 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:46,380 answer that only maintained their ignorance, the earth 146 00:09:46,380 --> 00:09:49,260 continued to move around the sun. The fact that the law was 147 00:09:49,260 --> 00:09:53,850 put in house arrest, didn't change anything. And so my, in 148 00:09:53,850 --> 00:09:57,930 fact, two weeks ago, there was a paper written by a philosopher 149 00:09:57,930 --> 00:10:03,210 published in Nature. anime magazine, arguing that this 150 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,070 strange object that we referred to before are more and more, 151 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,570 that didn't look like a comet or an asteroid could not have been 152 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,340 of artificial origin. And when I saw this paper, I thought to 153 00:10:17,340 --> 00:10:20,130 myself, haven't we learned something from the days of 154 00:10:20,130 --> 00:10:23,730 Galileo, that philosophy is not the way to settle such issues, 155 00:10:23,940 --> 00:10:27,270 what we need is a high resolution image, because they 156 00:10:27,270 --> 00:10:31,890 say a picture is worth 1000 words. In my case, a picture is 157 00:10:31,890 --> 00:10:36,270 worth 66,000 words, the number of words in my book, Extra 158 00:10:36,270 --> 00:10:39,090 Terrestrial that they wrote about the subject, I will need 159 00:10:39,090 --> 00:10:41,850 to write the book if we had a high resolution photograph, it's 160 00:10:41,850 --> 00:10:45,510 not a philosophical question. And so that is the rationale 161 00:10:45,540 --> 00:10:50,580 behind the GALILEO project. What we want is to get more evidence 162 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:57,060 on objects near Earth that look weird. And that we do not know 163 00:10:57,060 --> 00:11:00,690 the nature of so are more and more the subject that was that 164 00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:03,450 came from outside the solar system, the first one that we 165 00:11:03,450 --> 00:11:07,770 discovered, that came from interstellar space near Earth, 166 00:11:08,310 --> 00:11:12,930 that didn't look like a comet or an asteroid, is an example. And 167 00:11:12,930 --> 00:11:17,100 if we find more of the same, we might want to send a spacecraft 168 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,420 equipped with a camera that will take a close up photo of it. But 169 00:11:21,450 --> 00:11:25,380 in much the same way, there were these unidentified aerial 170 00:11:25,380 --> 00:11:31,230 phenomena in the Pentagon report to Congress exactly a month ago, 171 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,720 whose nature is unknown, and the government admitted that, but 172 00:11:36,750 --> 00:11:41,670 the government collected data from jittery cameras in fighter 173 00:11:41,670 --> 00:11:48,570 jet, you know, and relying on eyewitness testimonies and so 174 00:11:48,570 --> 00:11:53,820 forth. This is a kind of data set that is not suitable for 175 00:11:53,820 --> 00:11:57,990 scientific inquiry. And what we want to do is construct 176 00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:02,370 telescopes where we have full control over the way they are 177 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,620 operating and collecting data from our sky in a scientific way 178 00:12:07,650 --> 00:12:13,470 and analyzing it, it will be open data, and we our analysis 179 00:12:13,470 --> 00:12:17,670 will be completely transparent. Since we're not taking the data 180 00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:21,150 from government owned sensors. There are no restrictions on 181 00:12:21,150 --> 00:12:23,910 using it's just like doing astronomy. In astronomy, you 182 00:12:23,910 --> 00:12:28,110 look at distant objects here, one would look at nearby 183 00:12:28,110 --> 00:12:33,030 objects, but again, using telescopes. So the you know, 184 00:12:33,030 --> 00:12:36,870 every time we look at the sky in a different way, we discover new 185 00:12:36,870 --> 00:12:40,590 things. And so my point is we will learn something new even if 186 00:12:40,590 --> 00:12:44,940 you AP these unidentified aerial phenomena are a result of some 187 00:12:44,970 --> 00:12:50,430 rare atmospheric phenomena like lightning or something that was 188 00:12:50,430 --> 00:12:52,740 not expected because the government doesn't know what 189 00:12:52,740 --> 00:12:58,380 they are, we will figure it out a team of scientists and resolve 190 00:12:58,380 --> 00:13:01,410 this issue and learn something new. If we learn that or more or 191 00:13:01,410 --> 00:13:07,740 more this object from 2017 ends up being a chunk of frozen 192 00:13:07,740 --> 00:13:10,350 hydrogen, the size of a football field, you know, something that 193 00:13:10,350 --> 00:13:13,200 was suggested, we will learn something new, it's not 194 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:17,310 something that we've seen before it was not produced in the solar 195 00:13:17,310 --> 00:13:20,730 system. And then therefore, we learn something new no matter 196 00:13:20,730 --> 00:13:24,660 what it's a win win proposition, the worst thing we can do is say 197 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:29,760 business as usual. and ignore those anomalies that are in the 198 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,810 Pentagon report to Congress. And in the discovery of for more and 199 00:13:33,810 --> 00:13:34,050 more, 200 00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:36,960 John Greenewald: what really caught my attention with your 201 00:13:36,990 --> 00:13:39,540 your press release and the press conference that you guys put out 202 00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:42,810 today. Which by the way, well done for those who want to see 203 00:13:42,810 --> 00:13:46,470 the full press conference. The link is down below. I definitely 204 00:13:46,470 --> 00:13:50,280 recommend to watch it because it goes into great detail about 205 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,360 what Professor Loeb and his entire team are doing with the 206 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,140 GALILEO project. But what I want to ask you is earlier I asked 207 00:13:58,140 --> 00:14:01,260 about the hesitancy about scientists talking about alien 208 00:14:01,260 --> 00:14:05,880 life traversing the cosmos and, and and the apprehension to go 209 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,360 there. But with unidentified aerial phenomena as part of the 210 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,320 scope of what you're doing, can you can you helped me understand 211 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:16,830 the the difference with your project, how you're going to 212 00:14:16,830 --> 00:14:20,610 approach something that is in our atmosphere? I mean, are you 213 00:14:20,610 --> 00:14:25,800 looking at uaps that literally are very close to Earth? Or are 214 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,340 you using the term to reference something that may be in or 215 00:14:29,340 --> 00:14:30,750 around our solar system? 216 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,120 Avi Loeb: No, no, we are using it in the same way that the 217 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:37,830 Pentagon report us used it. And the point is that we will have a 218 00:14:37,830 --> 00:14:41,370 network of telescopes looking at the sky. You know, the sky is 219 00:14:41,370 --> 00:14:46,830 not classified unless you're next to a military complex and 220 00:14:47,970 --> 00:14:51,600 we will simply monitor the sky The way astronomers do, except 221 00:14:51,780 --> 00:14:55,920 we will pay attention to things nearby rather than things far 222 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,390 away so they move much faster. And usually, if a bird flies 223 00:15:00,390 --> 00:15:05,760 above a telescope that looks at distant forces, then people 224 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,130 ignore it, the astronomers just don't pay attention to it. But 225 00:15:08,130 --> 00:15:11,820 for us, it will be an object of interest, then, of course, we 226 00:15:11,820 --> 00:15:14,640 will need a computer system equipped with artificial 227 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,380 intelligence to figure out which objects we want to follow on and 228 00:15:19,380 --> 00:15:25,590 monitor and, and study. And the idea is to develop many such 229 00:15:25,590 --> 00:15:29,250 systems, depending on on the funding. So I should say that 230 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:33,060 foundation for this project was that two weeks ago, several 231 00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:37,740 individuals came to me after reading my book and listening to 232 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,820 some of the 1000 interviews I had since the book was published 233 00:15:41,850 --> 00:15:47,010 six months ago. It's translated into 25 languages very broadly 234 00:15:47,010 --> 00:15:50,640 read, and a few wealthy individuals approached me and 235 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,960 said that here's some money that that no strings attached you can 236 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,280 use for the purpose of your research. And I was really 237 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,980 grateful to those people, I didn't engage in any 238 00:16:01,980 --> 00:16:07,710 fundraising. So I now have $1.755 million from those people 239 00:16:07,890 --> 00:16:12,120 that they didn't have a few weeks ago. And I decided to 240 00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:16,260 establish this project by assembling a team of exceptional 241 00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:20,760 scientists that we have, and also end a scientific advisory 242 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,920 board of very distinguished scholars, and that will advise 243 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:31,080 us and all together, it's the first scientific project that is 244 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,820 well funded, that will collect data on these objects 245 00:16:35,850 --> 00:16:40,980 unidentified objects in in, in the atmosphere, as well as 246 00:16:41,010 --> 00:16:45,630 Interstellar objects outside the atmosphere like Anwar, and they 247 00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:50,310 will analyze it with, of course, the hope that may be one of 248 00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:53,550 them. By the way, we don't need more than one to originate from 249 00:16:53,550 --> 00:16:56,760 an extraterrestrial technological civilization, 250 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,950 because that would already have a huge impact on humanity when 251 00:17:01,950 --> 00:17:05,340 we realize that there is something out there. And 252 00:17:06,690 --> 00:17:11,220 unidentified objects might be a mixed bag, most of them might be 253 00:17:11,250 --> 00:17:15,870 might have mundane explanations, but it's not really about most 254 00:17:15,870 --> 00:17:19,980 of them. It's about the one that would appear really strange. And 255 00:17:19,980 --> 00:17:21,060 that cannot be explained. 256 00:17:21,540 --> 00:17:23,190 John Greenewald: I'm just curious. And I think I know the 257 00:17:23,190 --> 00:17:26,700 answer. You didn't name the donors. So I assume they're 258 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:27,390 anonymous? 259 00:17:27,810 --> 00:17:30,180 Avi Loeb: No, they're not anonymous, you can find the 260 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:33,450 names on the philanthropic advisory board that is listed on 261 00:17:33,450 --> 00:17:34,110 our website. 262 00:17:34,350 --> 00:17:37,500 John Greenewald: Oh, okay. I thought they were not named. So 263 00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:38,790 I'm glad I asked. Okay. 264 00:17:38,970 --> 00:17:44,040 Avi Loeb: No, we just Okay, so the press release was our 265 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:47,490 conference was not about the gift, short, more about the 266 00:17:47,490 --> 00:17:52,140 project. And then we are really grateful for these generous 267 00:17:52,260 --> 00:17:56,160 individuals that committed funds. And the hope is that we 268 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,330 will be able to raise 10 times more funding, because with the 269 00:18:00,330 --> 00:18:06,030 current funding, we can perhaps put 10 to 15 telescopes in 270 00:18:06,030 --> 00:18:11,250 various locations. But if we had 10 times more money, then we 271 00:18:11,250 --> 00:18:15,600 could do a much more rigorous job in serving, you know, a big 272 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,050 chunk of earth for any unusual objects. 273 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,870 John Greenewald: Was there a turning point for you? And this 274 00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:26,100 is kind of a personal question. But when it comes to the either 275 00:18:26,130 --> 00:18:29,250 extraterrestrial objects in space, or those that are much 276 00:18:29,250 --> 00:18:33,150 closer to home here on planet Earth, was there a turning point 277 00:18:33,150 --> 00:18:36,300 for you? Was that a MOO MOO? Or was there something else that 278 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:41,070 made you really say, okay, we need to if money should ever 279 00:18:41,070 --> 00:18:46,230 arise? And here it is, put it towards UAP research? of these 280 00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:48,690 of these types of objects? Is there an event like that for 281 00:18:48,690 --> 00:18:48,990 you? 282 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,390 Avi Loeb: Yeah, definitely the discovery of for more and more 283 00:18:51,390 --> 00:18:54,390 before that, I was working on cosmology, the study of the 284 00:18:54,390 --> 00:18:56,940 universe, the first stars, the form the universe, the 285 00:18:56,940 --> 00:19:02,430 scientific version of the story of Genesis, and I pretty much 286 00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:09,090 pioneered this, this frontier and have two books on it. When 287 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:11,880 very, I started working on it, when very few people were 288 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,140 interested, I also worked on black holes, and I worked on the 289 00:19:16,140 --> 00:19:19,830 dark matter in the universe, gravitational waves, topics that 290 00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:24,150 are part of the mainstream now, that the early on, were not 291 00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:26,310 necessarily part of the mainstream. And that taught me 292 00:19:26,310 --> 00:19:29,640 an important lesson not not to pay attention to how many likes 293 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,580 I get on Twitter, that's not really relevant. I need to keep 294 00:19:32,580 --> 00:19:36,570 my eyes on the ball, not on the audience. But then when Omar 295 00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:40,230 showed up, I actually was interested because a decade 296 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:44,970 earlier, we wrote the first paper with two collaborators Ed 297 00:19:44,970 --> 00:19:49,290 Turner and Maya Moore, marking the first paper that forecasted 298 00:19:49,290 --> 00:19:54,300 how many rocks do we expect to find coming from other stars 299 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,620 based on what we know on the solar system, and we predicted 300 00:19:58,620 --> 00:20:02,640 that the telescope in Hawaii panstarrs will not find any by a 301 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:07,140 factor of 100 to 100 million. So it was really off the scale of 302 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:10,470 it, finding it. And then it found more and more. And that 303 00:20:10,470 --> 00:20:15,720 was surprising to me. And then I monitored the data on it at 304 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,920 first astronomers assumed it must be a comet. But then it 305 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,760 didn't show any cometary tail, there was no gas or dust around 306 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,880 it. And then as it was tumbling the amount of light that it 307 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:32,850 reflected change by a factor of 10, implying a very extreme 308 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,670 shape, most likely flat pancake like and then, and then it 309 00:20:38,670 --> 00:20:42,300 showed an excess push away from the sun, most likely by 310 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:46,620 reflecting sunlight, because the the push declined inversely with 311 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:49,050 distance squared, like you expect from reflecting sunlight. 312 00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:53,550 But that required a very thin object, which I argued, nature 313 00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:57,600 doesn't produce. And in fact, in September 2020, there was 314 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,820 another object found, given the name 2020 s, oh, and it ended up 315 00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:08,220 being a rocket booster that we launched in 1966. And it had 316 00:21:08,220 --> 00:21:11,700 thin walls, and it also exhibited an excess push away 317 00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:15,060 from the sunburn reflecting sunlight, no cometary tail. So 318 00:21:15,060 --> 00:21:18,300 here you have it, an artificial object that we produced, 319 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:23,490 behaving just like a Momo was not necessarily designed to be a 320 00:21:23,490 --> 00:21:28,680 light sale. So for that reason, I now think maybe more more was 321 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:33,030 not designed to be a sale pushed by light, perhaps it serves 322 00:21:33,030 --> 00:21:36,150 another purpose. One possibility, maybe it was a 323 00:21:36,150 --> 00:21:40,470 receiver, trying to collect data from probes that were 324 00:21:40,530 --> 00:21:43,860 distributed in the solar system a long time ago. But we don't 325 00:21:43,860 --> 00:21:47,490 know we don't have enough data. And of course, it's the possible 326 00:21:47,490 --> 00:21:50,430 maybe it's a very unusual rock that we've never seen before, 327 00:21:50,430 --> 00:21:53,370 like some of my colleagues argue, my point is, we should 328 00:21:53,370 --> 00:21:56,370 collect more data on future objects, get a photograph, and 329 00:21:56,370 --> 00:21:58,200 that will set the issue 330 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,010 John Greenewald: is that with the money that you have feasible 331 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,490 to put cameras, I don't know the cost. So that's why I'm asking 332 00:22:05,490 --> 00:22:10,470 like, is there at this point, a absolute goal of what you can do 333 00:22:10,470 --> 00:22:13,110 with the current funding, and then obviously, what you could 334 00:22:13,110 --> 00:22:14,010 do with expansion? 335 00:22:14,310 --> 00:22:17,550 Avi Loeb: Yeah, so with the current funding, we can get 10 336 00:22:17,550 --> 00:22:22,320 to 15 telescopes, roughly the size of 10 inches, you can buy 337 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,310 these telescopes, off the shelf, just the other day I was looking 338 00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:33,390 online, if if you wanted to get a megapixel image of an object, 339 00:22:33,390 --> 00:22:38,640 the size of a person at a distance of a mile, you can do 340 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,780 that with a one meter telescope that has a diameter of one 341 00:22:42,780 --> 00:22:47,550 meter. And I found it online, and you can click add to the 342 00:22:47,550 --> 00:22:51,120 bag, and it costs half a million dollars. So apparently, there 343 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:55,710 are people that are adding such a telescope to their bag, for 344 00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:58,290 half a million dollars, I you know, I don't have such a bank 345 00:22:58,290 --> 00:23:02,610 account. But then otherwise, it wouldn't be offered to add it to 346 00:23:02,610 --> 00:23:08,070 your bag. And but at first we will. So what I'm saying is with 347 00:23:08,070 --> 00:23:12,780 such a telescope, you could resolve this, the size of the 348 00:23:12,780 --> 00:23:16,260 head of a pin on an object, the size of a person, you know, it's 349 00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:20,250 a megapixel image. And you could read off the label that whether 350 00:23:20,250 --> 00:23:27,840 it says made in country X on Earth, or made on planet y, far 351 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,530 away from Earth, you can tell the difference. And that's all 352 00:23:31,530 --> 00:23:35,400 you need. Now, we will start with a network of somewhere 353 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,820 between 10 and 50 telescopes that are smaller than that maybe 354 00:23:38,820 --> 00:23:43,650 10 inches in size and and each of them will be equipped with a 355 00:23:43,650 --> 00:23:48,300 camera that gets the data and then transfers it to a computer 356 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:51,000 system that will filter out the data because there would be a 357 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,540 huge flood of data with continuous video that you take 358 00:23:54,540 --> 00:24:00,570 off the sky with a high a large number of pixels and and we will 359 00:24:00,570 --> 00:24:04,860 have to filter out the objects of interest using artificial 360 00:24:04,860 --> 00:24:11,130 intelligence. So the idea is to deploy a lot of these systems 361 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,810 telescope plus camera plus computer system in different 362 00:24:15,810 --> 00:24:21,120 locations and monitor this guy. So with the $1.755 million, we 363 00:24:21,120 --> 00:24:26,280 have, we can definitely have at least 10 of them. But if we got 364 00:24:26,310 --> 00:24:30,150 10 times more funding, we can put at least 100 times of them, 365 00:24:30,420 --> 00:24:33,090 you know the number of telescopes that we use is just 366 00:24:33,090 --> 00:24:35,340 proportionate to the amount of funding we have because each 367 00:24:35,340 --> 00:24:39,000 system is independent. And of course with 100 of them, we can 368 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,480 do much better, we can cover many more regions, how do you 369 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,230 choose the spots? Excellent question, this is to be 370 00:24:46,230 --> 00:24:50,850 discussed. And then of course there is there is a claim that 371 00:24:50,850 --> 00:24:56,910 perhaps the UAP are clustered around the military constraint 372 00:24:56,910 --> 00:25:01,380 maybe nuclear reactors, some special areas, it's not clear 373 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:05,280 whether that's just a selection effect whether we are patrolling 374 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,400 these areas much more than others. And of course, that will 375 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:13,290 be part of the study, too, because the best places to put 376 00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:16,080 these telescopes are actually mountaintops, where you find 377 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,920 astronomical observatories, they have very good seeing, there is 378 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:23,610 not much blurring by the turbulence in the atmosphere. 379 00:25:23,820 --> 00:25:27,960 And you can look at great distance towards the horizon in 380 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,190 search for such unusual objects. So it would be very beneficial 381 00:25:32,190 --> 00:25:37,530 in terms of visibility to place such telescopes in astronomical 382 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:42,420 observatories. But the question is, will the UAP be there? Or 383 00:25:42,420 --> 00:25:45,330 maybe they prefer to be somewhere else? 384 00:25:46,110 --> 00:25:47,700 John Greenewald: We you mentioned the military and 385 00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:51,480 around military installations. And obviously, we do see an 386 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,920 influx of that by the admission of the US government. Is there 387 00:25:55,950 --> 00:26:00,570 is there any? or will there be any coordination with the 388 00:26:00,570 --> 00:26:03,420 military or the US government, since you are putting in an 389 00:26:03,420 --> 00:26:06,930 effort to investigate what the government has said that they 390 00:26:06,930 --> 00:26:09,120 are investigating any connection? 391 00:26:09,690 --> 00:26:12,390 Avi Loeb: Well, the point is, the government is using 392 00:26:13,110 --> 00:26:18,360 classified sensors that are used for national security purposes. 393 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:23,130 And obviously, most of the data is classified for that reason, I 394 00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:26,850 would much rather not look at that data, because then there 395 00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:30,750 would be restrictions on what I can do. Because even 396 00:26:30,750 --> 00:26:34,650 subconsciously, if I had them a peek at their data that is 397 00:26:34,650 --> 00:26:38,850 classified, you know, that they would be concerned that I that 398 00:26:38,850 --> 00:26:43,740 will guide my assembly of data, and I would much rather be 399 00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:47,610 completely independent doing it in the scientific way, you know, 400 00:26:47,610 --> 00:26:52,260 just like astronomers, look at that, exploding stars or distant 401 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:57,090 galaxies. Nobody forbids them from doing that. And, you know, 402 00:26:57,090 --> 00:26:59,760 so what's the difference of an object very far away, you know, 403 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,510 billions of light years away, versus an object that is just 404 00:27:03,510 --> 00:27:07,860 next to us. You can use telescopes, in astronomical 405 00:27:07,860 --> 00:27:11,010 observatories, and nobody prevents you from looking at the 406 00:27:11,010 --> 00:27:15,540 sky. And the idea would be to do it in a scientific way. So 407 00:27:15,660 --> 00:27:21,810 measuring quantitatively what we find, and rather than relying on 408 00:27:21,810 --> 00:27:25,080 eyewitness testimonies, you know, you can't use that in 409 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,130 scientific papers. So my my goal, if you ask me, globally, 410 00:27:29,130 --> 00:27:32,010 is to bring this subject to the mainstream of science, because 411 00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:37,380 the public is very curious about this question. And if we do 412 00:27:37,380 --> 00:27:41,490 that, then we will get more funding to science. Because the 413 00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:46,080 public fund science in the proof to that is that I got, you know, 414 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,430 nearly $2 million in two weeks, I didn't do any fundraising. And 415 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,020 we can attract a lot a lot of young people to science. And the 416 00:27:55,020 --> 00:28:00,540 proof to that is that that in my inbox is full now, just a few 417 00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:04,110 hours after the press conference with young people asking to join 418 00:28:04,110 --> 00:28:08,400 the project and volunteering to contribute from their time to 419 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,700 the study. And, you know, that's remarkable. People are excited 420 00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:16,080 about this question. They want to help the project succeed. And 421 00:28:16,110 --> 00:28:19,650 what I'm saying is, it's a lost opportunity, if scientists would 422 00:28:19,650 --> 00:28:24,240 continue to shy away from this subject as they did in the past, 423 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,620 because you can tap the enthusiasm and promote our 424 00:28:28,620 --> 00:28:32,340 knowledge of the universe. And my point is, it's a win win 425 00:28:32,340 --> 00:28:35,040 proposition. Even if we learn that there is some rare 426 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,390 atmospheric phenomena, or the the hydrogen icebergs being 427 00:28:39,390 --> 00:28:42,690 produced in some nurseries in spaces, we've never imagined 428 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,830 putting on something new. So there, we cannot lose by getting 429 00:28:46,830 --> 00:28:49,860 more data, we can only benefit because we get a better 430 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:50,970 understanding of reality. 431 00:28:52,530 --> 00:28:56,160 John Greenewald: Do you ever think about why the government 432 00:28:56,190 --> 00:28:59,310 doesn't share the majority of the data? You mentioned the 433 00:28:59,310 --> 00:29:03,840 classified systems? I'm 100%, on board with you there. And I get 434 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:10,110 that. But do you feel that there's another wall that is 435 00:29:10,140 --> 00:29:13,830 shielding that data and being shared with the general public 436 00:29:13,890 --> 00:29:16,860 with scientists such as yourself? Because there's a lot 437 00:29:16,860 --> 00:29:21,240 that they could share that would help you implement the GALILEO 438 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,050 project and placement of instrumentation and so on, if 439 00:29:25,050 --> 00:29:27,870 you had more data that wouldn't be tapping into classified 440 00:29:27,870 --> 00:29:31,260 systems. Do you ever wonder what they're hiding? 441 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,740 Avi Loeb: No, I think it's mostly for that reason that you 442 00:29:34,740 --> 00:29:38,760 mentioned that then the data is classified because it was taken 443 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,450 by classified censors. And then there is a lot of bureaucracy 444 00:29:42,450 --> 00:29:46,860 along the way that that prevents the release of this data. And I 445 00:29:46,860 --> 00:29:51,630 can give you an example. And the reason there was a major Meteor. 446 00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:56,550 That's an object that collided with earth that burned through 447 00:29:57,060 --> 00:30:00,780 the atmosphere of earth that that was found in 2000. I'm 15. 448 00:30:00,780 --> 00:30:05,490 And with my student, we analyze the data that was released. And 449 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,660 it was detected by government owned sensors. And they just 450 00:30:09,660 --> 00:30:13,830 published some data about about the subject without giving error 451 00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:17,070 bars without stating how uncertain they are about the 452 00:30:17,070 --> 00:30:20,940 trajectory. But we use the data to say, wait a minute, it moved 453 00:30:21,090 --> 00:30:23,940 too fast, this object must have come from outside the solar 454 00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:27,660 system. And it was 2015. So we said, this is the first 455 00:30:27,660 --> 00:30:31,590 detection before more and more of an interstellar object. And 456 00:30:31,590 --> 00:30:35,160 it was an interstellar Meteor. And we submitted the paper for 457 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,990 publication. And then the referees, their reviewers of the 458 00:30:39,990 --> 00:30:45,240 paper argued, well, we want to see the error budget. We don't 459 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,190 trust the government. So I had some colleagues that have 460 00:30:50,190 --> 00:30:54,600 connections across the fence. And they said that could we get, 461 00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:59,250 even if not the error budget, just an upper limit on how 462 00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:02,790 uncertain the government is, in terms of their parameters of 463 00:31:02,790 --> 00:31:06,120 this particular object. And it took months and months, and 464 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:10,440 eventually, I got an upper limit. So I submitted the paper 465 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,130 with my student, Amir Suraj, to the journal and said, We just 466 00:31:14,130 --> 00:31:18,120 got this information that this is the upper limit. And then the 467 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,980 reviewer said, I don't believe the government. So then the 468 00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:27,480 editor of the journal said, Okay, we'll find a reviewer that 469 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,950 has access to the classified information, and we'd be able to 470 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:36,960 report back and say, yes, this paper deals with data that is 471 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:42,120 reliable. He couldn't find such a person. So then the paper was 472 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,800 never published. And I did my best. And this just illustrates 473 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:52,140 to you the gap that there is between Open Data Science and 474 00:31:52,140 --> 00:31:56,640 government data, what I mean, all we needed in this case is to 475 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:02,310 say, okay, the, the speed of the subject was some number, plus or 476 00:32:02,310 --> 00:32:06,330 minus some other number, and we were missing the plus or minus. 477 00:32:06,330 --> 00:32:09,720 So if they said, like, I don't know, 20 kilometres per second, 478 00:32:09,870 --> 00:32:13,290 plus or minus five kilometres, then that would be it. That's 479 00:32:13,290 --> 00:32:16,500 all we needed. But they were not. I mean, there was a, it 480 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:20,490 took months, at best, we got an upper limit, but that was not 481 00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:23,370 satisfactory, the paper never got published. So it shows you 482 00:32:23,370 --> 00:32:27,810 the difference in the systems of science, open science, and 483 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,740 government own data. And as a result, you know, I think the 484 00:32:31,740 --> 00:32:35,790 best approach forward in terms of identifying the unidentified 485 00:32:36,180 --> 00:32:39,660 is to collect new data, let's forget, let's not obsess with 486 00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:43,860 all data, let's just collect new data, you know, I'm practically 487 00:32:43,860 --> 00:32:46,920 behaving like a kid, you know, when, when an adult tells the 488 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,840 kid, the truth is like that the kid just ignores the adult very 489 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,930 often, and says, I want to figure it out myself. That's how 490 00:32:54,930 --> 00:32:59,040 kids get bruised, how they get into trouble, because they don't 491 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,890 listen. So I basically prefer to get the data myself. And that's 492 00:33:04,890 --> 00:33:07,830 the way science operates. You know, science is based on, you 493 00:33:07,830 --> 00:33:11,280 know, it's maintaining the childhood curiosity in a way 494 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:17,490 that you need to reproduce your evidence, it's not enough to 495 00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:21,930 rely on a one time miracle, or a one time event that someone told 496 00:33:21,930 --> 00:33:26,100 you about what you want us to be able to reproduce the claimant. 497 00:33:26,310 --> 00:33:28,920 And that's what we can do with the GALILEO project by finding 498 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,290 new objects, using telescopes in an open data framework without 499 00:33:34,290 --> 00:33:37,950 me knowing anything about the past. And that's that's the 500 00:33:37,950 --> 00:33:38,700 approach we think, 501 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,640 John Greenewald: it seems like transparency is a goal of the 502 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,610 project, which you've been talking about. But how is that 503 00:33:44,610 --> 00:33:47,250 data going to be shared? If you don't mind me asking? 504 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:50,310 Avi Loeb: Oh, very simple way, we can just put it on the on the 505 00:33:50,310 --> 00:33:50,610 web. 506 00:33:52,170 --> 00:33:56,190 John Greenewald: And it just for for? Is it like the raw science 507 00:33:56,190 --> 00:33:59,460 data for other scientists around the world to take part? Is it 508 00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:00,570 Yeah, just sharing. 509 00:34:00,870 --> 00:34:03,720 Avi Loeb: So this is very common in Well, it's not always the 510 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,230 case. In science. Sometimes groups, teams that collect data 511 00:34:07,230 --> 00:34:11,250 prefer to keep it to themselves so that they can harvest the 512 00:34:11,250 --> 00:34:14,580 fruits out of that data before anyone else has access to it, 513 00:34:14,580 --> 00:34:19,620 because they invested a lot of the time in constructing the 514 00:34:19,620 --> 00:34:22,830 instruments that will be that were used to collect the data 515 00:34:22,830 --> 00:34:27,420 and so forth. So that exists. And there are some projects 516 00:34:27,420 --> 00:34:31,140 where the data is not available to everyone else for a few 517 00:34:31,140 --> 00:34:34,830 years, and then it's available. But the approach we will take is 518 00:34:34,830 --> 00:34:38,430 that the data will be available as soon as as soon as we have 519 00:34:38,430 --> 00:34:44,610 it. And as soon as it can be used by others. And I don't see 520 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,230 I think that's the best approach because other people may look at 521 00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:53,340 the same data and infer something different from it. And 522 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:59,610 we want to allow that rather than filter the data that other 523 00:34:59,610 --> 00:35:00,930 people Can See, 524 00:35:02,070 --> 00:35:05,460 John Greenewald: in the last six, seven minutes or so I 525 00:35:05,460 --> 00:35:10,080 wanted to ask you, I'm just I'm hoping I could ask you about a 526 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:14,910 little bit of speculation on when the GALILEO project, let's 527 00:35:14,910 --> 00:35:17,730 say you implement everything and you make that discovery. And 528 00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:22,590 there's something really is out there that confirms you. What 529 00:35:22,590 --> 00:35:26,520 has been your aim now for many years. Have you speculated of 530 00:35:26,550 --> 00:35:30,360 what that would be? I mean, what is it? Do you feel that we would 531 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:31,410 run into first? 532 00:35:31,709 --> 00:35:34,949 Avi Loeb: Well, you know, as a physicist, the scientists or 533 00:35:34,949 --> 00:35:38,279 they would, I'm actually a theorist, someone that tries to 534 00:35:38,279 --> 00:35:41,039 interpret data, rather than someone that collects the data. 535 00:35:41,669 --> 00:35:46,319 These are called observers in astronomy. And for me, if I get 536 00:35:46,319 --> 00:35:50,609 a data set, I immediately start to think how to explain it. You 537 00:35:50,609 --> 00:35:53,039 know, there are lots of anomalies in astronomy, for 538 00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,979 example, we don't know what most of the matter in universities, 539 00:35:55,979 --> 00:35:58,589 it's called dark matter. And that's, that's an anomaly 540 00:35:58,589 --> 00:36:03,629 because we haven't seen it. There are other anomalies. So 541 00:36:04,139 --> 00:36:09,359 whenever you see something unusual, immediately, I start to 542 00:36:09,359 --> 00:36:13,859 have ideas in my mind that, you know, in directions that could 543 00:36:13,859 --> 00:36:16,469 explain it. And that's what I will do. In this case, I will 544 00:36:16,469 --> 00:36:20,459 try to use what I know about physics to provide an 545 00:36:20,459 --> 00:36:24,149 interpretation and explanation for the data. And, of course, 546 00:36:24,149 --> 00:36:28,439 other people might use other ideas, but then it's just like, 547 00:36:28,469 --> 00:36:31,109 it's often done in science. So if there is a good 548 00:36:31,109 --> 00:36:34,469 interpretation, or several competing interpretations, then 549 00:36:34,469 --> 00:36:39,389 you try to collect more data and rule out and those that do not 550 00:36:39,389 --> 00:36:44,789 fit the new data. And it's just like a detective work. And in my 551 00:36:44,789 --> 00:36:48,629 book, extraterrestrial, I refer to the work of Sherlock Holmes 552 00:36:48,629 --> 00:36:52,049 that they basically said, we need to put all possibilities on 553 00:36:52,049 --> 00:36:55,469 the table and roll them out there one by one, and whatever 554 00:36:55,469 --> 00:36:57,419 remains must be the truth. 555 00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,400 John Greenewald: So when it comes to that alien life, 556 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,220 though, and this is that speculation that has fascinated 557 00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:09,240 me, I was I work as a television producer, and did quite a few 558 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:13,980 shows on this very topic. And the thing that blew me away, was 559 00:37:13,980 --> 00:37:17,130 the idea that mainstream science and scientists were really 560 00:37:17,130 --> 00:37:20,460 playing with the machine intelligence, the artificial 561 00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:25,020 intelligence that when we do find out, we are not alone. It 562 00:37:25,020 --> 00:37:28,350 would essentially be with a non biological entity, rather a 563 00:37:28,350 --> 00:37:32,160 mechanical one. And when I first heard that, I'm fully admit, I 564 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,060 laughed. Dr. Seth shostack. It said he was the first one years 565 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:38,640 and years and years ago, who had brought that up when I was 566 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,520 producing the show. Long story short, I was blown away, because 567 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,610 after actually researching it, and doing numerous shows for 568 00:37:44,790 --> 00:37:49,560 history and discovery on it, I mean, I, I'm convinced, Can I 569 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,160 throw that idea to you? Is that what you lean towards? Do you do 570 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,460 you think about that aspect of what type of intelligence you 571 00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:57,060 might find? 572 00:37:57,510 --> 00:38:00,360 Avi Loeb: Definitely, I mean, that was featured in some of my 573 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:04,170 recent commentaries in Scientific American. You see, 574 00:38:04,350 --> 00:38:09,000 humans, or any biological creature on earth, was not 575 00:38:09,060 --> 00:38:15,780 selected by Darwinian evolution to travel between stars, you 576 00:38:15,780 --> 00:38:20,040 know, in fact, we wouldn't survive for more than one year 577 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:23,610 in space without proper protection because of cosmic 578 00:38:23,610 --> 00:38:27,630 rays that's often missed by people like Elon Musk, that 579 00:38:27,660 --> 00:38:32,430 advocate going to Mars and settling there. First, you need 580 00:38:32,460 --> 00:38:37,020 perhaps to dig caves for people to settle into because there is 581 00:38:37,020 --> 00:38:41,340 no protection. And if you put people on Mars, for a year, the 582 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,180 substantial fraction of the their brain cells will get 583 00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:49,680 damaged by cosmic rays. Because Mars doesn't have an atmosphere 584 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,670 doesn't have magnetic field to protect those humans first 585 00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:57,390 travels. So you're sending them to their death, if you're not 586 00:38:57,390 --> 00:39:01,530 protecting. And then, as a result, you know, it makes much 587 00:39:01,530 --> 00:39:06,240 more sense to send instruments, because you can imagine creating 588 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,000 instruments that were survive even for billions of years 589 00:39:09,870 --> 00:39:13,650 through space. And now we are at the point where we develop 590 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,970 artificial intelligence systems that could potentially outsmart 591 00:39:17,970 --> 00:39:22,320 us, you know, self driving cars, and in the future, much better 592 00:39:22,770 --> 00:39:27,420 systems. And I can imagine sending one of those systems to 593 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:31,500 space such that, you know, we train it, we educated just like 594 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:35,880 we train our kids. We provide them with a blueprint for how 595 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,120 they should behave in life. And then we send our kids into 596 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,070 reality into into the world, and they operate autonomously. And 597 00:39:44,250 --> 00:39:48,090 the same should be true for those AI systems that might have 598 00:39:48,090 --> 00:39:51,090 been sent by other civilizations. And of course, 599 00:39:51,090 --> 00:39:54,720 there is not enough time for them to get guidance once 600 00:39:54,720 --> 00:39:58,410 they're on their way because the distance between stars are so 601 00:39:58,410 --> 00:40:04,530 you huge You know, the nearest star to us, is four light years 602 00:40:04,530 --> 00:40:08,280 away. And so it takes like, eight years for a round trip. 603 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,820 And that's the nearest star. So if you go, if you are sent from 604 00:40:11,820 --> 00:40:14,820 a star across the galaxy takes 10s of 1000s of years, there is 605 00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:20,100 no way that the system would wait for guidance in order to 606 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:23,850 decide what to do. And so if you have artificial intelligence, 607 00:40:23,850 --> 00:40:28,080 the system is sufficiently smart to make its own decisions based 608 00:40:28,110 --> 00:40:31,050 on its experience, and based on the blueprint that it was 609 00:40:31,050 --> 00:40:35,610 prepared with. And the question is, of course, what guides it, I 610 00:40:35,610 --> 00:40:39,180 mean, what kind of information is seeking? What is its 611 00:40:39,240 --> 00:40:42,510 objective. And to figure this out, if we ever encounter such a 612 00:40:42,510 --> 00:40:47,490 system, we need our own AI system. So it's sort of 613 00:40:47,490 --> 00:40:50,700 resembles the situation where you find new content on the 614 00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:53,910 internet, but you cannot fully understand it. And then you ask 615 00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:56,820 your kids to interpret it for you, because they're much more 616 00:40:56,820 --> 00:41:01,770 computer savvy. And we might need our own AI systems to 617 00:41:01,770 --> 00:41:06,870 interpret their AI systems. And if they outsmart our AI systems, 618 00:41:07,260 --> 00:41:12,090 you know, they might win this Darwinian contest, and it's not 619 00:41:12,090 --> 00:41:15,180 clear that we would survive after contact. 620 00:41:15,660 --> 00:41:18,720 John Greenewald: What's interesting is you have AI 621 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:22,350 working with you on the GALILEO project to help and assist you 622 00:41:22,350 --> 00:41:25,080 on the way and and that in itself would lead into a 623 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,350 fascinating second hour, which I would love to have you for. But 624 00:41:28,350 --> 00:41:30,600 hopefully, Professor, you'll come back, it was a pleasure. 625 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,420 Let me ask you one last thing here in the last 60 seconds, 626 00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:35,970 take as long as or as little as you want. I know you have a 627 00:41:35,970 --> 00:41:39,390 tight schedule today. Is humanity ready for such a 628 00:41:39,390 --> 00:41:40,050 discovery? 629 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,440 Avi Loeb: No. I think most people prefer to stay in their 630 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,450 comfort zone. And basically believe that we are unique and 631 00:41:48,450 --> 00:41:52,590 special, because that flatters our ego. And it reminds me of my 632 00:41:52,590 --> 00:41:56,400 daughters when they were young, and they were at home, they tend 633 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,670 to think that they're the smartest in the world. And when 634 00:41:59,670 --> 00:42:02,370 we took them to the kindergarten on the first day at school, they 635 00:42:02,370 --> 00:42:06,420 had a psychological shock, because they met kids that might 636 00:42:06,420 --> 00:42:09,570 be smarter than they are. And of course, if I were to ask them, 637 00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:12,210 they would say that they prefer to stay at home to maintain 638 00:42:12,210 --> 00:42:15,870 their illusion. So for that reason alone, I think that most 639 00:42:16,050 --> 00:42:22,290 people prefer to believe that we are unique and special. But you 640 00:42:22,290 --> 00:42:26,850 know, it makes no sense to ignore reality, because then 641 00:42:26,850 --> 00:42:29,640 you're not accommodating properly. And guess what? One 642 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,360 day, a smart neighbor will knock on your door, and it will be too 643 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:33,930 late. 644 00:42:36,090 --> 00:42:38,490 John Greenewald: absolutely fascinating conversation. I know 645 00:42:38,490 --> 00:42:41,700 you have a packed day today. Thank you so incredibly much for 646 00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:45,420 taking the time. Obviously, I wish you the absolute best of 647 00:42:45,420 --> 00:42:48,930 luck with the GALILEO projects. But I do hope that you come back 648 00:42:48,930 --> 00:42:52,440 and share your updates whenever time permits, because I know my 649 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,070 audience absolutely loves this. I absolutely love it. And I'd 650 00:42:56,070 --> 00:42:59,790 love to dig in to more of that AI slash machine intelligence 651 00:42:59,790 --> 00:43:02,910 because I just love that. So thank you so much. 652 00:43:02,970 --> 00:43:06,480 Avi Loeb: And thank you, john. And if people are interested, 653 00:43:06,690 --> 00:43:09,480 they can follow my commentaries in Scientific American every 654 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,930 week. And it's also on my web page at Harvard University. 655 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,840 John Greenewald: Perfect and a full breakdown of all the links 656 00:43:15,990 --> 00:43:20,580 and everything for Professor Avi Loeb is below in the show notes. 657 00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:23,160 So make sure you check that out, including the press conference. 658 00:43:23,490 --> 00:43:26,070 Thank you again, professor. Really, really enjoyed it. And 659 00:43:26,070 --> 00:43:28,410 thank you all for listening and watching. This is John 660 00:43:28,410 --> 00:43:30,990 Greenewald, Jr signing off, and we'll see you next time.